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	<title>Comments on: Israel and Palestine</title>
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	<link>http://www.theonlinerant.com/2009/01/12/israel-and-palestine/</link>
	<description>Jamie's thoughts, ideas, and struggles</description>
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		<title>By: Alexander</title>
		<link>http://www.theonlinerant.com/2009/01/12/israel-and-palestine/comment-page-1/#comment-317</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonlinerant.com/?p=341#comment-317</guid>
		<description>This is a really complicated situation:
A nation &quot;A&quot; - that means military with support of the population - is doing things that many people do consider as not being right against another nation &quot;B&quot;.
Now in nation &quot;B&quot; there are some people that regard it as appropriate to choose very aggressive means in a guerilla way against that whole nation &quot;A&quot;, not only the military but also those people that mostly support their army.

I&#039;m not sure how this is to judge from an ethical point of view. Let&#039;s say I can understand it in a certain way, but I think these deadly means are not right and not appropriate.

But there are two other questions:
Can this RE-action justify (!) further military actions against nation &quot;B&quot;???

I can understand it from the view of people that wouldn&#039;t be aware what&#039;s going on around them or wouldn&#039;t understand the whole situation.
But I don&#039;t think that it is right.

And 2nd: can you generally say that killing civilians is not appropriate in a situation that may be seen as some kind of war?

I do live in a country where some years ago many many thousands of civilians were killed on very purpose, also by the American army. Whole big cities in Germany have been bombed out in a very horrible way. And there were no terorists or army institutions &quot;hidden&quot;. As far as I know this strategy until today is seen as a good one, and many people are proud of having done this...

So it seems to be a generally accepted means of war killing civilian people - mothers and children - if you can&#039;t beat the military!

Done and praised also by US-Americans.


I do not consider it right - whoever does this!

It is not right if terrorists of a nation do it to the others.
And it should taken into account if you valuate the actual &quot;re-re-action&quot; in Gaza that has the very same effect - as far as I know many civilians, mothers and children are killed by this.
At least for me there doesn&#039;t seem to be a real justification!

An alternative would be: people try to urge their government to comport in another way that is not provoking such aggressive reactions. People that demonstrate and &quot;fight&quot; for (real!) peace.
As far as I know several people there do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a really complicated situation:<br />
A nation &#8220;A&#8221; &#8211; that means military with support of the population &#8211; is doing things that many people do consider as not being right against another nation &#8220;B&#8221;.<br />
Now in nation &#8220;B&#8221; there are some people that regard it as appropriate to choose very aggressive means in a guerilla way against that whole nation &#8220;A&#8221;, not only the military but also those people that mostly support their army.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure how this is to judge from an ethical point of view. Let&#8217;s say I can understand it in a certain way, but I think these deadly means are not right and not appropriate.</p>
<p>But there are two other questions:<br />
Can this RE-action justify (!) further military actions against nation &#8220;B&#8221;???</p>
<p>I can understand it from the view of people that wouldn&#8217;t be aware what&#8217;s going on around them or wouldn&#8217;t understand the whole situation.<br />
But I don&#8217;t think that it is right.</p>
<p>And 2nd: can you generally say that killing civilians is not appropriate in a situation that may be seen as some kind of war?</p>
<p>I do live in a country where some years ago many many thousands of civilians were killed on very purpose, also by the American army. Whole big cities in Germany have been bombed out in a very horrible way. And there were no terorists or army institutions &#8220;hidden&#8221;. As far as I know this strategy until today is seen as a good one, and many people are proud of having done this&#8230;</p>
<p>So it seems to be a generally accepted means of war killing civilian people &#8211; mothers and children &#8211; if you can&#8217;t beat the military!</p>
<p>Done and praised also by US-Americans.</p>
<p>I do not consider it right &#8211; whoever does this!</p>
<p>It is not right if terrorists of a nation do it to the others.<br />
And it should taken into account if you valuate the actual &#8220;re-re-action&#8221; in Gaza that has the very same effect &#8211; as far as I know many civilians, mothers and children are killed by this.<br />
At least for me there doesn&#8217;t seem to be a real justification!</p>
<p>An alternative would be: people try to urge their government to comport in another way that is not provoking such aggressive reactions. People that demonstrate and &#8220;fight&#8221; for (real!) peace.<br />
As far as I know several people there do.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Barrows</title>
		<link>http://www.theonlinerant.com/2009/01/12/israel-and-palestine/comment-page-1/#comment-316</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Barrows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonlinerant.com/?p=341#comment-316</guid>
		<description>@Gordon
No, I&#039;m not saying that the Palestinians don&#039;t have a right to resist the invasion of their territory. Of course they do. But that doesn&#039;t give them the right to deliberately target civilians in their rocket attacks.
 
But aside from the above, I think you have missed the point of this post. My point is that by deliberately targeting civilian rather than military targets, Hamas is forcing Israel&#039;s hand. Because it isn&#039;t soldiers that are dying from the rocket attacks, but rather children and mothers, Israel must respond with extreme force. The Israeli government has no choice, but to invade. Or they will no longer have the support of their own population. It doesn&#039;t matter if the Palestinians have legitimate reasons for fighting or not. When they target civilians, they provoke an extreme (and predictable) response from the Israeli government. A response that, if we are being honest, is the same as they would get from any other nation in the world. You can&#039;t attack a nation&#039;s civilian population and expect that that nation won&#039;t respond back with extreme force.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Gordon<br />
No, I&#8217;m not saying that the Palestinians don&#8217;t have a right to resist the invasion of their territory. Of course they do. But that doesn&#8217;t give them the right to deliberately target civilians in their rocket attacks.</p>
<p>But aside from the above, I think you have missed the point of this post. My point is that by deliberately targeting civilian rather than military targets, Hamas is forcing Israel&#8217;s hand. Because it isn&#8217;t soldiers that are dying from the rocket attacks, but rather children and mothers, Israel must respond with extreme force. The Israeli government has no choice, but to invade. Or they will no longer have the support of their own population. It doesn&#8217;t matter if the Palestinians have legitimate reasons for fighting or not. When they target civilians, they provoke an extreme (and predictable) response from the Israeli government. A response that, if we are being honest, is the same as they would get from any other nation in the world. You can&#8217;t attack a nation&#8217;s civilian population and expect that that nation won&#8217;t respond back with extreme force.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill W</title>
		<link>http://www.theonlinerant.com/2009/01/12/israel-and-palestine/comment-page-1/#comment-315</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 07:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonlinerant.com/?p=341#comment-315</guid>
		<description>no, I would not stand by.  I do not want rocket launchers aimed at my apartment building.  That is why I am considering joining the reserves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>no, I would not stand by.  I do not want rocket launchers aimed at my apartment building.  That is why I am considering joining the reserves.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://www.theonlinerant.com/2009/01/12/israel-and-palestine/comment-page-1/#comment-314</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonlinerant.com/?p=341#comment-314</guid>
		<description>Jamie

Im sorry but if someone invaded and took my country I would fight and so would you if it happened to you. What you are saying is its not ok To fight back against an illegal invasion.
Its no different to saying that anyone who fired back at hitler was causing his agression. Perhaps we should not fight an illegal invasion and that will stop the bloodshed. So if the Russians come here and bulldoze my home and I launch a rocket to attack them then they have a right to bombard me till I just don&#039;t resist. You are saying I should just let them steel my country. This is still happening on a daily basis in the westbank (legally palestinion territory). Palestinion homes being bulldozed with no legal authority. It is not Israeli territory and is not internationally recognised as being such. This is an illegal occupation now. Palestinions have a right to defend the westbank which is still their legal territory. They are been turned out of their own country. Give me strenght if someone did that to me I&#039;d be firing rockets.

&lt;strong&gt;[Edited for language - Jamie]&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jamie</p>
<p>Im sorry but if someone invaded and took my country I would fight and so would you if it happened to you. What you are saying is its not ok To fight back against an illegal invasion.<br />
Its no different to saying that anyone who fired back at hitler was causing his agression. Perhaps we should not fight an illegal invasion and that will stop the bloodshed. So if the Russians come here and bulldoze my home and I launch a rocket to attack them then they have a right to bombard me till I just don&#8217;t resist. You are saying I should just let them steel my country. This is still happening on a daily basis in the westbank (legally palestinion territory). Palestinion homes being bulldozed with no legal authority. It is not Israeli territory and is not internationally recognised as being such. This is an illegal occupation now. Palestinions have a right to defend the westbank which is still their legal territory. They are been turned out of their own country. Give me strenght if someone did that to me I&#8217;d be firing rockets.</p>
<p><strong>[Edited for language - Jamie]</strong></p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Barrows</title>
		<link>http://www.theonlinerant.com/2009/01/12/israel-and-palestine/comment-page-1/#comment-313</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Barrows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonlinerant.com/?p=341#comment-313</guid>
		<description>And yet Hamas isn&#039;t just being aggressive and fighting against the institutions that suppress Palestinians or attacking the military forces in their territory. Hamas is attacking neighborhoods and families. The rockets are aimed at residential targets not military forces. And the suicide bombers attack cafes and buses. They aren&#039;t attacking bases or tanks.

My point is that when the average citizen, who is not military and who is simply a working class person, has his family attacked, he is going to demand that his government make it stop. 

It isn&#039;t going to matter to him if his governments policies are the reason for the anger that is fueling the rocket attacks and suicide bombs. He is going to demand that his government protect him from those attacks, or he is going to elect a new government. One that will protect him.

The Palestinian government does not have enough control over it&#039;s own citizens to enforce any diplomatic agreement between them and Israel. They have too many powerful armed factions within their territory to be able to guarantee any agreements.

Diplomacy, at least at this stage, isn&#039;t going to stop the attacks. So what is the Israeli government supposed to do about the rocket attacks or the bombs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And yet Hamas isn&#8217;t just being aggressive and fighting against the institutions that suppress Palestinians or attacking the military forces in their territory. Hamas is attacking neighborhoods and families. The rockets are aimed at residential targets not military forces. And the suicide bombers attack cafes and buses. They aren&#8217;t attacking bases or tanks.</p>
<p>My point is that when the average citizen, who is not military and who is simply a working class person, has his family attacked, he is going to demand that his government make it stop. </p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t going to matter to him if his governments policies are the reason for the anger that is fueling the rocket attacks and suicide bombs. He is going to demand that his government protect him from those attacks, or he is going to elect a new government. One that will protect him.</p>
<p>The Palestinian government does not have enough control over it&#8217;s own citizens to enforce any diplomatic agreement between them and Israel. They have too many powerful armed factions within their territory to be able to guarantee any agreements.</p>
<p>Diplomacy, at least at this stage, isn&#8217;t going to stop the attacks. So what is the Israeli government supposed to do about the rocket attacks or the bombs?</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander</title>
		<link>http://www.theonlinerant.com/2009/01/12/israel-and-palestine/comment-page-1/#comment-312</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonlinerant.com/?p=341#comment-312</guid>
		<description>Imagine somebody would bother you and suppress you.
You would become aggressive.
He would kill you - for that.

Would this be right?

Would it be Christian?

Would it be Democracy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Imagine somebody would bother you and suppress you.<br />
You would become aggressive.<br />
He would kill you &#8211; for that.</p>
<p>Would this be right?</p>
<p>Would it be Christian?</p>
<p>Would it be Democracy?</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Barrows</title>
		<link>http://www.theonlinerant.com/2009/01/12/israel-and-palestine/comment-page-1/#comment-311</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Barrows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonlinerant.com/?p=341#comment-311</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not saying that the past history isn&#039;t relevant to the current situation. Of course it is relevant. The past history is the CAUSE of this current war.

What I&#039;m saying is that if you or I were in the situation of a normal working class Israeli, I expect that we would be demanding that our government make the rocket attacks stop at all costs. And I don&#039;t think we would be willing to wait for yet another failed (regardless of who&#039;s fault the failure is) diplomatic solution. If I was living in Israel, I would want and demand a guarantee that the rockets were going to stop.
The current Palestinian leadership cannot and will not give that kind of guarantee. So the only way that the Israeli government can give it&#039;s citizens the security and protection that they demand, is to invade and occupy the Gaza strip. Is the invasion a long term solution to the problem? No it isn&#039;t, and furthermore it is likely to make things worse in the future. But due to the corruption and chaos that is the current Palestinian government, invasion is the only way to stop the rocket attacks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not saying that the past history isn&#8217;t relevant to the current situation. Of course it is relevant. The past history is the CAUSE of this current war.</p>
<p>What I&#8217;m saying is that if you or I were in the situation of a normal working class Israeli, I expect that we would be demanding that our government make the rocket attacks stop at all costs. And I don&#8217;t think we would be willing to wait for yet another failed (regardless of who&#8217;s fault the failure is) diplomatic solution. If I was living in Israel, I would want and demand a guarantee that the rockets were going to stop.<br />
The current Palestinian leadership cannot and will not give that kind of guarantee. So the only way that the Israeli government can give it&#8217;s citizens the security and protection that they demand, is to invade and occupy the Gaza strip. Is the invasion a long term solution to the problem? No it isn&#8217;t, and furthermore it is likely to make things worse in the future. But due to the corruption and chaos that is the current Palestinian government, invasion is the only way to stop the rocket attacks.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://www.theonlinerant.com/2009/01/12/israel-and-palestine/comment-page-1/#comment-310</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 04:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonlinerant.com/?p=341#comment-310</guid>
		<description>In the Westbank which is supposed to be the palestinions only remaining legal portion (as seen by the west) when it used to be their homeland, the Isralis buldoze Palestinion homes on any pretext and send them to refugee camps. Then they build new homes with US money for Israeli settlers. It is an illegal occupation. If the Russians were buldozing your homes and moving settlers into newly built homes where yours once stood and your children live in the cold do you think you would have a right to fight it. Israel should give the palestions back the last remnant of what is their legal territory (the West Bank ) and we should all help them rebuild their demolished homes.

http://nctv-israel-palestine.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-and-palestine-in-2-mins-chalk.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the Westbank which is supposed to be the palestinions only remaining legal portion (as seen by the west) when it used to be their homeland, the Isralis buldoze Palestinion homes on any pretext and send them to refugee camps. Then they build new homes with US money for Israeli settlers. It is an illegal occupation. If the Russians were buldozing your homes and moving settlers into newly built homes where yours once stood and your children live in the cold do you think you would have a right to fight it. Israel should give the palestions back the last remnant of what is their legal territory (the West Bank ) and we should all help them rebuild their demolished homes.</p>
<p><a href="http://nctv-israel-palestine.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-and-palestine-in-2-mins-chalk.html" rel="nofollow">http://nctv-israel-palestine.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-and-palestine-in-2-mins-chalk.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Alexander</title>
		<link>http://www.theonlinerant.com/2009/01/12/israel-and-palestine/comment-page-1/#comment-309</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonlinerant.com/?p=341#comment-309</guid>
		<description>I think always the history of the actual situation must be taken into account!
Not only counting one bomb versus the other(s) bomb. This might be a rather simple point of view.
Of course bombing and launching missiles is not right at all!!!
But there are certain political and social backgrounds for that (not &quot;reasons&quot; - I condemn this kind of aggression).
And there should be – as far as possible – also political and social SOLUTIONS for that!

That simple rule “An eye for an eye” is not Christian – it is Old Testament.

Moreover I think nowadays there should be more intelligent solutions.
Pure militarism doesn’t seem to me a very differentiated point of view.
Think about the history that has led to the actual situation.
Can killing hundreds of (in parts innocent) people really lead to peace there?
Or will it nourish fanatism - as military actions recently proved to do in proximate regions.

As far as I know many people are obliged to live in these regions. And they can’t escape.
What would you do, what would you think and feel if you were in their position?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think always the history of the actual situation must be taken into account!<br />
Not only counting one bomb versus the other(s) bomb. This might be a rather simple point of view.<br />
Of course bombing and launching missiles is not right at all!!!<br />
But there are certain political and social backgrounds for that (not &#8220;reasons&#8221; &#8211; I condemn this kind of aggression).<br />
And there should be – as far as possible – also political and social SOLUTIONS for that!</p>
<p>That simple rule “An eye for an eye” is not Christian – it is Old Testament.</p>
<p>Moreover I think nowadays there should be more intelligent solutions.<br />
Pure militarism doesn’t seem to me a very differentiated point of view.<br />
Think about the history that has led to the actual situation.<br />
Can killing hundreds of (in parts innocent) people really lead to peace there?<br />
Or will it nourish fanatism &#8211; as military actions recently proved to do in proximate regions.</p>
<p>As far as I know many people are obliged to live in these regions. And they can’t escape.<br />
What would you do, what would you think and feel if you were in their position?</p>
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